Public opinion is highly polarized regarding the Israel-Gaza conflict, with strong sentiments on both sides. Many commenters support Israel’s right to defend itself against Hamas, while an equally vocal group criticizes Israeli military actions as oppressive and genocidal, particularly highlighting the humanitarian crisis affecting civilians in Gaza. The comments reflect a deep-rooted frustration with the ongoing violence, the cycle of suffering, and the need for a more compassionate understanding of the complexities involved.

Israel

Palestinian Authority

Hamas

International Community

Just a small correction - Journalists (Israeli or International) are not restricted from entering Gaza, they are restricted from roaming it alone. They can enter with IDF escort, and many have done it already. (and many journalists refuse, claiming this is not free press, and categorizing it as de-facto restricting them from entering)

To be clear, I don't like that policy, be if you talk about facts, it needed to be corrected.

TalMilMata

The only point I would quibble with is the number of journalists.  Yes, there have been journalists killed but people who are both militants and journalists are not given the same protection as journalists.  If an IDF soldier wrote a byline in a newspaper that does not make them an illegitimate target (same thing for a Hamas militant who wears a press jacket and takes pictures).  Therefore, the number of journalists killed is higher than 0 but fewer than 186.  How many fewer?  I don’t know but I’d surmise a substantial number.  And I don’t know how the remaining numbers compare on a per capita basis (per journalist, really) to previous urban wars.

NoTopic4906

&gt;4. At Least 186 Journalists Killed

Not everyone with a camera is a journalist and plenty of so called journalists are combatants. I'd hardly consider this factual.

I highly recommend [reading this thread](https://x.com/MiddleEastBuka/status/1933125048878895242) which breaks down the status of alleged journalists listed by the CPJ. Unsurprisingly, many of them were combatants.

Additionally, this is [the list](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GxLWyBiWMAAb2Ot?format=jpg&amp;name=large) published by the CPJ with combatants highlighted in yellow and cases of collateral damage highlighted in blue (this was done because the CPJ does not distinguish between civilians and combatants). All the other names have not yet been verified as such information tends to be scarce since Hamas has warned people not to publish the combatant status of Palestinians killed by Israel.

CreativeRealmsMC

in 3 your title says destroyed the source says destroyed or damaged

CaregiverTime5713

Number 5 here is totally out of place. What's the message?

itscool

&gt;Over 60% of Gaza’s Housing Has Been **Destroyed**

&gt;According to a joint UN, EU, and the World Bank report (as of March 2024), more than 60% of housing units in Gaza have been **destroyed or** ***damaged***.

Do you see a problem here?

knign

The biggest problem in this conflict is that the majority of Palestinians and most Muslim countries surrounding Israel want the Jews gone by whatever means. “ From the river to the sea” this statement that they repeat means they want the Jews ultimately expelled by any means (death or expulsion) from the region. History has shown this (Hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers have also been killed and expelled from various countries in the Middle East over the years) So they will always present an ongoing threat to the Jews. This leaves a conflict that can’t be resolved unless the Muslim perception of what should happens to the Jews and Israel changes. You can’t live next to neighbors that are constantly trying to find ways to kill, and expel you by any means. Israel eventually got fed up and now they aren’t playing fair either. They’ve lost perspective on humanitarian interests. So it’s a very sad state of affairs. I will say that the Jews are some of the few ethnicities that have been persecuted all over the world just for being Jewish. In my mind because of the history of persecution of the Jews. It’s necessary for them to have some sort of safe haven. History has a way of repeating itself and so in the future they may need this land for more Jews to come to Israel to escape genocide/persecution. Not looking at any of the claims to land or religious spots that one side or the other claims as their own. I would think that other Muslim countries that have similar ideologies would accept the Palestinians and give them land that is abundant in surrounding areas. Israel and the UN could help to pay for that infrastructure. Then create a neutral space out of Gaza region and other Israel borders. Having a neutral force such as the UN control those areas. Remember, The state of Israel is tiny compared to the rest of the majority Muslim Middle East. This is the only resolution I see. It may not be fair. But I really can’t see any other realistic resolution to stop the fighting. It’s just like two dogs that won’t stop fighting. Eventually there’s nothing left to do but separate them completely.

Traditional-River-74

So basically in 1948 Palestine let in Jews to refuge but they stole some land and called it Israel an haha actual country ( that thought makes me laugh .) so basically it’s stolen land Palestine’s land then in October 7 they release b….s to Palestine funded by Israel products like McDonald’s L’Oréal lays Coca Cola and Pepsi so those people have cut out water and food for the people there killed there family’s made an Oman ( the guy who says the prayers ) cry of pain asking Muslim countries for support and to top it off they raise there kids to hate Arabs like me they go out in TikTok videos of an Arabic talking to Israelis  and have screamed “ I hate Arabs and want them to d.. and they are gonna be killed like Palestine “ they said it out loud know kids in gaza barely a year old are found under ruble a 6 month old was found crying under ruble Alhamdull Allah he was saved and now 3 year olds cry “ ya rab ya rab “ cuz they lost it all it’s all spreading and that is all

Lafarttoosi

A bit late here and might not contribute much to understanding the conflict itself but I'll chip in from my field of expertise: language. Aside from the fact that neutrality already promotes passive attitude, which means you won't find these people participating in movements and discussions much, the heavy radicalization of the subject is deeply related to the language norms and how people take in information.

One of the most successful tactics that US has used in their media to incite emotional response happens through the use of specific words, like "terrorists" or "pro-" and "anti-" something. Now, due to the success of internationalizing their media, US outlook affects a vast majority of information regarding political subjects.

What I am getting to here is that the use of such terms already affects your perception of there being only two sides, or skewing the morality of certain events to promote abstract ideas "justice" and "freedom" while ignoring things like basic human rights.

Basically, referring to a side as pro-Palestine, you are either including a person in a movement, or excluding them as anti-Palestinian (basically, in and out group identity theory at work here; often seen in cults and, surprisingly, US politics). Furthermore, by referring to groups like Hamas as terrorist groups, although accurate by the definition of the word, removes any concern over reason for their appearance and actions in the first place. Anyone supoorting them supports terrosism, anyone against - dehumanizes them.

Again, if you look at a statement like "Israel has a right to defend itself", they are already making a statement that supposes that:

1. They were the ones in danger here (which is questionable considering their military power)
2. Their actions are only made in self-defense (provably wrong, although I doubt you could argue that with any big pro-Israel supporters)
3. Anything you say before or after this statement is taken as a contradiction to that right.

On the other hand, the pro-Palestinian movement has a problem of herd mentality itself. The problem is mainly in the majority of the populace jumping to support something without educating themselves on the nuances of the subject, like what is Zionism, leading to pro-Nazism. Also, as mentioned before, the use of "pro-" and "anti-" creates problems of conflating pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli movement together, despite them describing very different approaches to the problem. Hence why you see "pro-Palestinian" threads overrun with hate against Israel and IDF (note here that I'm not saying whether this hate is warranted or not, just that it exists).

All in all, I think my biggest take after writing this post is that the emotional side of mob mentality is at work here to make people believe there's only two sides to the conflict and that language trends (whether natural or incited) contribute heavily to the escalation of the whole conflict.

charaichu

Obviously they are both at wrong for killing innocent civilians however it’s 80% Hamas/palestine fault and 20% Israel. No one likes the Islamic regimes. Nobody likes the terrorists organization that’s running these countries. They scream death to America and non Muslims all the time.

EvidenceActive5133

In order to understand you have to go back atleast 100ish years. Zionism was created by a European Jewish man because of the rise in antisemitism and he wanted a home for the Jewish people.

Fast forward to 1920sish where jewish people were coming into mandatory Palestine and setting up little colonies around the place. In these colonies the Palestinians that lived there were displaced and exploited. 

This continues on until 1948 when israel was created by the UN and britain. They had a map of potential places to put Israel like in Africa, North America, Asia etc but settled on mandatory Palestine. 

When this happened the Arab states went to war with Israel because they were essentially colonised and just planted in an already established country. So they go to war and unfortunately lose and 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled. This is when the nakba happens.

In April 1948 Palestinians were bei g ethnically cleanse d from their home by violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. Dozens of massacres targeted Palestinian Arabs and over 500 Arab-majority towns, villages, and urban neighborhoods were depopulated. Many of the settlements were either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jews and given new Hebrew names. Israel employed biological warfare against Palestinians by poisoning village wells. By the end of the war, 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine was controlled by Israel.

The Nakba continued after the end of the war in 1949 Israel prevented Palestinian refugees outside of Israel from returning. Palestinians continued to be expelled, and more Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed, with new Israeli settlements established in their place. Palestinian place names and the name "Palestine" itself were removed from maps and books. Massacres of Palestinians also continued after the war. 69 Palestinians were killed in the 1953 Qibya massacre. A few years later, 49 Palestinians were killed in the Kafr Qasim massacre, on the first day of the 1956 Suez Crisis. Palestinians in Israel remained under strict martial law until 1966.

During the 1967 Six-Day War, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees were driven from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Most were driven into Jordan This has become known as al-Naksa or *the setback* in English. After the war, Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Some two thousand Palestinians were killed in a massacre led by the Lebanese Front at the Siege of Tel al-Zaatar in 1976, during the Lebanese Civil War. Palestinian refugees in Lebanon were killed or displaced during the 1982 Lebanon War, including between 800 and 3,500 killed in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Now this is when the first Intifada happens. The First Intifada began in 1987 and lasted until the 1993 Oslo Accords. The Second Intifada began in 2000. In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza and blockaded it. In the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israel has built the Israeli West Bank barrier and created Palestinian enclaves.

In 2011, Israel passed the Nakba Law, which denies government funding to institutions that commemorate the Nakba.

On 7 Oct 2023 hamas that was created by Palestinian Islamic scholar Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israeli occupation, so basically because of Israel, attacked the concert it was a reaction to what had happened in previous years. It wasn't unprovoked.

The 2023 Gaza war has caused the highest Palestinian casualties since the 1948 war, and has raised fears among Palestinians that history will repeat itself.  These fears were exacerbated when Israeli Agricultural Minister Avi Dichter said that the war would end with "Gaza Nakba 2023." Dichter was rebuked by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.


Then on 8 Oct 2023 Israel starts to bomb gaza all the way up until now when a few months ago they blocked all the food and water getting into gaza to basically starve them. There has been attempts to get food and aid in with freedom flotillas one called the conscience which was bombed by Israel and the people on board were injured (in international waters btw) and the current one the Madleen. The Madleen was stopped by the idf and all people were kidnapped into israel where they were out in prison except for Greta Thunberg.

Edit: also hamas and Palestine aren't the same thing. They are independent of eachother and half the people that are in gaza are kids so they didn't even vote for them. **also the idf knew hamas was going to attack on that day months on advance but they didn't do anything because they wanted an excuse to bomb gaza**

[deleted]

Watch the full, unedited 4 minute video of the Madleen being illegally seized in international waters right here. Spread this video! Show the world the truth. You can clearly see, the Israeli military demands the crew members throw phones in the ocean, so they can control the narrative, and operate with impunity and no eyes on them ! Despicable.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za1xyW1yjbY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za1xyW1yjbY)

Ill_Fact2153

What's really amazing is just how many Jihadist Islamist terrorist groups the Gazans seem to support. A different Caliphate on every corner block.

I mean fuck, no wonder the Egyptians put a wall up !

Automatic-Pack-6014

My side is correct the other side is full of maniacs

Relis_

An elderly family friend grew up in Palestine. Maybe Muslim or Coptic Christian, but not religious. A long time ago he talked about how everyone lived side by side (Muslim/Christian/Jews) and it wasn’t a problem. Then there was when it became Israel. He wasn’t angry or anything. His family was able to emigrate when he was in his teens, he’s an American. And very republican.

I just always remembered what he said. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in the US with a *totally* different story. 

That was sorta how I came to realize that I was completely misled and lied to growing up. 

From an objective point of view, Palestinians experience apartheid conditions and their homes and land were definitely stolen. 

I grew up with the whole plant trees in Israel thing, I had NO idea the point was to erase Palestinian towns and villages. 

So. Yeah. *sigh* 

It’s not great. 

Then I found out about DNA studies. The people claiming God grants them this land, most aren’t related to any indigenous populations. 

Anyway. That’s the shape of it. 

No_Performance8733

Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing. They are a Palestinian Islamist organization that ruled the Gaza Strip. So they were like the government there and also have a military wing, but they won't have a real army, so they rely on terror tactics. I think now everything in Gaza is so destroyed that there is no real order or central rule there anymore, but they are still active. Many Palestinians consider them resistance fighters, but I can't say how many, I mean they are this kind of leadership that suppresses opposition and they haven't allowed elections since they came to power. In the West Bank they don't rule at all, they have a different leadership there. 

My view on the development of the conflict: It has been under Israeli occupation since 1967. Israel withdrew its military from within the Gaza Strip ca. 20 years ago, but has been controlling its borders, air space etc, restricted the entry of goods,  it counts as occupation. Also bombed it from time to time, although not as heavily as now. So that's the background, Hamas didn't start the conflict on October 7, only escalated it. Which they shouldn't have anyway, I do not think attacking civilians is a legitimate form of resistance. Also it brought disaster for Gaza. So I do not support them in any way. But when pro-Israel people say it came from nowhere, that's also not fair.

And then I think Israel started some absolutely insanely disproportionate assault on the entire population of Gaza, killing at least tens of thousands of people, we don't even know the true death toll, and all the deaths from hunger, lack of clean water etc. In my view it is completely absurd to justify this as self-defense.

I tend to have very "pro-civilian on both sides" views, but when like 99% percent of deaths are on one side (my rough estimate), it moves my sympathy very much to that side. October 7 was bad and I'm sorry for the victims, but it just gets dwarfed by what has been going on in Gaza everyday since then. Israelis mostly live in safety now, and in Gaza people are being killed everyday.

katzenmama

Most Israelis would love to share a border with a modern secular progressive rich democracy full of Arabs who accept their existence. Can’t say the same for the other side.

Shepathustra

Explanation doesn't get much simpler than [this.](https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=zzz1oJYaFnloV8x1)

ImmaDrainOnSociety

I'm not choosing sides but what i can tell is.

Palestine is a good place

Isreal is a good place

But there are evils hiding inside Palestine. 

And Isreal is hunting the evil inside Palestine

Right??

TheTrenches888

I know enough to have an opinion, I don't just accept media reports although there is little to dispute the damage being done to only one side.
I'm pretty well versed in the post war politics and even there it's hard to support the Jewish method of getting what they want as I learned one of the biggest terrorist bombs ever at the time was planted in my country, in London by Jewish terrorists, one of whom became Israels prime minister.
The purpose of that bomb was to get a favourable decision for the state as quickly as possible and it worked!
Also during the end of the war the same Jewish group were in discussion with the Nazi's in an attempt to win the land in the middle east. The Nazi's!
 It seems inconceivable to consider doing a deal with the perpetrators of the genocide of your own people, but they were willing.
So Israel is no stranger to using extreme violence to get what it wants.
It will quite happily kill everyone in Palestine if it has to and move into Gaza and forget all about them.

Ultimately America is providing the means, I.e arms, for Israel to maintain its military strength in the region, without America I doubt there would be an Israel.
They don't endear themselves to their neighbours, they've been at war with all of them and its their own actions which have antagonised most of the trouble.
Like every country they justify their actions with rhetoric but its jyst self supporting propaganda for their own citizens.
I've seen Israeli TV and it literally shows nothing the west sees of Palestine, so they very much control the media and they control western media as far as they can. There are many restrictions on reporting which again is always the situation with those who want to hide their actions.
They know they are doing wrong.

Puzzleheaded_Pin2566

Very very very cliffnotes version (with lots of stuff cut out for the sake of brevity)

Around 1313 BCE is the time when historians believe the Exodus happened where the Jews leave Egypt, cross the Sinai and reach the phyiscal area of the Levant contemporaneously called "Canaan". The Jews conquer the Canaanites and settle the land.

There is an interim period between this conquering of the Canaanites and the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel known as the "Judges" wherein the Jews divide themselves internally into their 12 tribes and are ruled by local "judges". It is during this period that records of people called the "Philistines" start appearing mostly long the coastline of the Levant. The Philistines are agreed by historians to have originated from the islands in the Agean Sea or modern-day Greece. The Philistines are recorded to be "enemies" of the Jews as they were basically ancient version of the Vikings - landing on the shores of the Levant and raiding and pillaging what they found and establishing outposts. Cities like Gaza were founded by the Philistines. Stories like Samson and Delilah are set in the period of the Judges and showcase some of the tensions between the Jews and the Philistines.

Fast forward a couple of hundred years and the Kingdom of Israel is founded with the first recorded King Samuel who unites the 12 tribes into one kingdom. After the death of King Solomon, the Kingdom of Israel splits into two with the northern part of the country remaining as the Kingdom of Israel and the southern part of the country splitting off into a separate Kingdom of Judah. The Kingdom of Israel is where big name cities like Jericho and Jaffa (now Tel-Aviv) were located. The Kingdom of Judah is where big name cities like Jerusalem and Hebron were located.

Eventually the Kingdom of Israel is completely conquered by the Assyrian Empire. Judah holds out for a while longer but is itself conquered by the Babylonians. The area is then conquered by the Persians and is then conquered by the Greeks and finally is conquered by the Romans who name the area Judaea.

During the Roman period, the Jews attempt a revolt to overthrow the Romans. The Romans crush this revolt and as punishment to the rebels, expels a whole bunch of the Jews - but not all - from the Levant and renames the area from Judaea to Syria Palestina with "Palestina" being a Latinisation of the word "Philistine". The expelled Jews wander the globe resettling in other parts of the Roman Empire in places like Hispania. Others move further outside the empire to area like modern-day Iraq and Iran and some to central Europe.

In 637, the Rashudin Caliphate conquers Jerusalem and Syria Palestina from the Byzantines and Jerusalem and the Levant fall under Muslim Arab rule for the first time in recorded history. In 1260, the Mongols reach the Levant and start pillaging Jerusalem. However, it is the Mamluks from Egypt who manage to fend off the Mongols and the area falls under Mamluk control. In 1516, the Ottoman Sultan defeats the Mamluk leader and so the area falls under Ottoman rule and the Ottomans rename the area back to Syria Palestina.

In 1881, Tsar Alexander II of Russia is assasinated and it is alleged that one of the conspirators was a Jew. As a result, Tsar Alexander III of Russia is furious with the Jews and begins ethnically cleansing all Russian Imperial lands of Jews which included at the time most of Eastern Europe. Many of these Jews flee Russia and seek refuge in Western Europe. Many Western European countries deny entry and so the Jews split into three groups: those that went to Britain, those that went to the USA, and those that went to Ottoman Syria Palestina. This marks the start of European Jewish immigration into the Levant. It also marked the start of the idea of the creation of Jewish state somewhere due to the overwhelming rejection of Europe of the Eastern European Jews seeking refuge from ethnic cleansing.

During WWI, the British are enemies of the Ottomans and in an attempt to destablise the Ottomans from within, they promise the local Arab leaders living within the Ottoman Empire to give them their own lands and territories to control should they help the British in destablising the Ottomans. The Arab leaders agree envisioning a Pan-Arab state from Iraq and the Arabian Peninsula all the way to the Mediterranean Sea. At the same time, Britain is concerned about anti-Russian hate from the Jews within its borders as well as within the USA - Britain was worried the Jews might sway the then neutral USA to join the war against Russia. So Britain announced the Balfour Declaration in an attempt to appease the Jews. CONTINUED IN NEXT COMMENT

antsypantsy995

Let me break this down as simply and clearly as I can:

In 622 CE, Muhammad began preaching Islam, claiming it was the final revelation of God. He approached many tribes—including Jewish tribes in Arabia—seeking their acceptance of his new role as a prophet. The Jewish tribes rejected him, as Jewish prophecy is very specific about the timing and nature of the Messiah. Because of this rejection, Muhammad eventually turned violently against several Jewish tribes—most notably Banu Qurayza—resulting in massacres and the enslavement of women and children.

After Muhammad’s death, internal conflicts among his followers led to a split in Islam: Sunni and Shia. Despite this division, the early Islamic empires launched conquests across the Middle East, North Africa, and parts of Europe and Asia. These were brutal and expansive—driven by the belief that Islam should be spread globally. In regions like the Levant (which includes modern-day Israel), and later in India, conversion was often forced or incentivized through a heavy tax (jizya) on non-Muslims, who were treated as second-class citizens under Islamic law.

Fast forward to WWI:

The Ottoman Empire, which had ruled over the Levant for centuries, sided with Germany and lost. With their defeat came the collapse of Ottoman control, and Britain took over the area under the British Mandate of Palestine. At that time, Jerusalem already had a Jewish majority. Jews were living under oppression, and many from around the world began returning to their ancestral homeland.

Let’s not forget: Judaism predates both Christianity and Islam. Christianity emerged from Judaism. Islam then came 600 years later and adapted many Jewish stories, rebranding figures from the Torah as Muslim prophets. This was a deliberate attempt to erase Jewish connection to the land and faith. They even built the Al-Aqsa Mosque on top of the Jewish people’s holiest site—Temple Mount.

Now back to the British Mandate era:

The British promised Arab leaders 86% of the land. Jews, meanwhile, legally purchased around 8-10% of the land—at very high prices—from Arab landowners and absentee landlords in places like Beirut. Eventually, the UN proposed a partition plan: 13% for Jews, 86% for Arabs. The Jews accepted. The Arab Muslims (what we now call Palestinians) rejected it. Why? Because they didn’t want to share. They wanted the Jews to remain under Islamic rule. In Islamic doctrine, once land is conquered for Islam, it belongs to Islam forever.

When Jews declared independence in 1948, it was a land-back movement. A historically indigenous people reclaiming their ancestral homeland. Arab nations responded by attacking immediately. Arab leaders even told their people to temporarily flee so the invading armies could “push the Jews into the sea.” But they failed.

After losing, Jordan illegally annexed Judea and Samaria, renamed it the “West Bank,” and ethnically cleansed Jews from the region. Egypt took Gaza, and many Egyptians moved there—including members of the Muslim Brotherhood, who radicalized the population and began planning long-term strategies to destroy Israel. Around the same time, 850,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries—with nowhere to go but Israel.

Then came the invention of the “Palestinian identity” in the 1950s. It was a political campaign to delegitimize Israel and reframe a military defeat as a national injustice. They hired PR firms, infiltrated universities, and launched global propaganda campaigns.

In 1967, Arab nations again prepared to attack. They cut off trade routes and threatened Israel’s survival. Israel preemptively struck and won in just six days, reclaiming Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and the Sinai Peninsula. These were not “new conquests”—they were territories Israel had been denied, and where Jews had been expelled. Later, Israel gave Sinai back to Egypt in exchange for peace. They also signed peace with Jordan. Egypt, by the way, eventually overthrew the Muslim Brotherhood.

Now the bigger picture:

In the 1980s, the Muslim Brotherhood laid out a 100-year plan for a global Islamic caliphate. Their strategy? Use Western freedoms to weaken Western societies from within. Blend into progressive movements. Gain influence in media, education, and politics—until Sharia can be implemented by democratic means. Palestine would be their rallying cry. Their propaganda weapon.

This isn’t a conspiracy—it’s documented. The Brotherhood openly states their goals. Groups like Hamas are part of this movement. They’re not fighting for freedom—they’re fighting to eliminate the Jewish people and Israel. Just read Hamas’s charter—it calls for Israel’s destruction and genocide of Jews. It quotes Hadiths about killing Jews during the end times.

Then came October 7th.

It wasn’t resistance—it was genocide. Hamas launched a brutal surprise attack, targeting civilians, raping women, burning families alive, and taking hostages. That was their “hard launch”—and it followed years of testing propaganda campaigns through influencers and campuses.

Now the same radicals cry “genocide” against Israel for defending itself.

But here’s the truth: The only genocide on October 7th was committed against the Jewish people. Israel is doing what any nation would—defending its people. And they’ve had to since the moment they became a state.

The most important part. I don’t expect you to believe anything I say without fact checking. I highly encourage fact checking everything and looking at both sides. I used to be Pro Palestinian and even worked for a Palestinian family.

Ohaelise

You can be outraged and want Israel to allow aid in and stop missile strikes and be outraged at what Hamas have created and want them to lay down their weapons all at the same time.
Palestinian civilians are trapped between terrorists and tyrants.
There's no fences left to sit on.
It's just wasting time on intolerable discourse. Musing over historical bumph while kids are starving.
I don't want to pick sides but all I see on the news is fat Israeli kids dancing around and starving Palestinian kids facing the cruelest of deaths by slow hunger.

&gt;why are there so few neutral supporters

We live under capitalism. You need a lot of money like buying your own media, ads or dotting to NGOs to spread your message. Those who do expect some return on their investment. 

Neutral views seem to not be beneficial to either rich party. There may be a ton of smart people like academics with neutral views but you wouldn't hear about them in the media.

RomanKozhevnikov

Here’s the lay of the land. The debate and dispute is over how bad the situation is in Gaza. If you speak to the Israeli supporters, they will tell you that everyone is receiving food and displacement is normal during times of war. israel will tell you the refugees and human rights groups saying otherwise are hysterical. But here is what they are finding.


1: Famine levels well beyond what is witnessed in Sudan or Ethiopia

2: Porter potties that have not been maintained

3: The trash is everywhere

4: Hungry bodies that are wounded are more likely to die from diseases.

5: 80% of the population is displaced 

6: 50% of the buildings have been damaged beyond use and repair

7: All of the hospitals have been destroyed.

Pitiful_Ad5658

Xenofobic Zionists vs Rest of the World (which the Xenofobic Zionists call Antisemitics)

Salvo_das

EDIT: lol why the down votes and nasty comments, this was meant to be in a reply to someone that was going if at me for no reason  but I accidentally posted it as comment , you people need to calm down 

So I guess your not going to apologize for out right saying " im clearly okay with genocide" , even though I was polite enough to apologize for something you shouldn't of really taken personal anyway , but thats okay , I think I'm done with this discussion anyway cause sound like you MIGHT be your one of these people want to get nasty when discussing this topic, rather then seeing things from multiple perspectives 

However I do appreciate the information you gave me about Israel killing there own civilians, which I believe is related to the Hannibal Directive , that's looks like an interesting read

Bigg_Jobs

Hamas runs the “government” in Gaza. They were elected in 2006. They have never held another election. 
And yes, Hamas killed 1200 people on  Oct. 7 and took another 250 as hostages. Many of those have died.  
Both peoples claim a relationship to the land. Both sides have committed atrocities. And right now extremists are in control in both Israel and Gaza.

mcmircle

I think most people in the west are either neutral or lean to one side while recognizing both sides have legitimate grievances but have committed atrocities. These people tend to be the least vocal and imo are the silent majority.

TonaldDrump7

There is no such thing as a neutral supporter is there?
You don't support sitting on a fence!
Why would anyone support neutrality it will get you nowhere in this situation.
Will neutrality feed the kids starving to death in Gaza? Will looking at complex history feed them 
Israel is preventing aid, controlling water and power all of which is a form of democide.
It is the tip of the spear, that which matters in the present.

I’m neutral. This part of the world has never gotten along with each other. Not gonna happen now.

WinterMedical

For a subject like this it’s best to avoid social media and go direct to verifiable historical archives 

To start have a look at a short but impactful essay by an early and well respected Zionist - Jabotinsky. The essay is called The Iron Wall. And Bibi himself stated in summer of 2023 that he thought he was delivering well against the plan laid out in the essay. 

Have a look at that essay and you’ll get a very good idea of what’s happening

HugoSuperDog

Neutral people tend to not talk about the conflict. To feel compelled to post on a subreddit like this you probably care enough about the conflict to have formed an opinion.

PerceivingUnkown

Why are there very few neutral parties? because frankly their is no abstaining, you either see it is murder or you don't. If you've researched the topic, even in brief, you're naturally going to form an opinion; very few people take the time to say "I don't know." 

***I strongly suggest*** attending a protest if you can, talk to people, form your own opinion on who is actually constituting the body, the media requires one photo, one uncorroborated anecdote, and they can run " PP Protest chant's death to Jews" where in reality it may have been a singular person. Media is not neutral, they're in it for the $$$, anger generates $$$ so they have a incentive to editorialize.

In Australia whilst I'm sad it isn't total unison, the vast majority of Pro-Palestine protesters are incensed at what they feel is a disproportionate response by Israel, I'd suggest this was what the core of the protesting message is about. Their goals? Australian divestment both private and public of Israeli institutions. Few of us are actually pro-Hamas, of which I'd guess 25/75 ignorance of the facts, vs outright prejudice.

October 7th was rightly condemned as it was indiscriminate targeting of civilians, a war crime, from a terrorist group, etc... Hamas taking hostages has been condemned. This conflict is bigger than any one day or party.

The conflict is ultimately about who should control what in Israel and Palestine, that requires knowledge of who the parties are, predicting what they'll do, how it would be achieved, and knowledge of what is rightfully who's, each of which is a complicated issue in its own right.

Regarding who owns what, the Arab view is the Israeli formation is illegitimate, and amounts to theft of land; the Israeli view is either a. Jews were always connected to the land and/or b. might makes right, c. Jew's are uniquely qualified based on their history of persecution, or d. any people are entitled to secede from a nation.

Goals are for the Israeli's  the view that Arab total-control is a non-starter as ultimately the majority view them as genocidal/supremacist, and they demand legitimization via recognition. Arabs take the view that either they are entitled to full sovereignty as Israel is 'illegitimate', or at the very least Israel recedes to the 67' borders, but refuses to acknowledge Israel's legitimacy regardless.

Generally the flaws I see with both sides arguing is that pro-israelis readily conflate Zionism, Judaism, Jewishness, Ethnicity etc... to broaden the scope of antisemitism, vs Pro Palestines who have to contend with some of their rank are actually antisemitic, and there is no 'good' party in Palestine to rally around. (This is not saying Israel is 'good' but pro-Israeli's believe it to be.)

Generally I take the view that pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinians alike need to do a better job at understanding the differences between Jew, Zionist, Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, and Israeli; further both sides really need to understand the concept of prejudice and specifically antisemitism/ 'anti-arabism' 

In my view if you can't agree to these following terms, you're not even worth considering: every man, woman, and child are born equals, Jewish, Arab, Israeli, Palestinian, Muslim, etc... **Equals,** subsequently it is invalid to argue from scripture, or against a ethnicity/nationality if it is not a universal view. (i.e. not Palestinians are entitled to stolen property, but Everyone is entitled to their stolen property.); the targeting of civilians is unjustifiable, whether violence or theft; Judging a person based on any of the previously mentioned characteristics alone; lastly that war crimes, where they occur are absolutely apologetically wrong.

There's a lot, I'd suggest arguing, if you have a sense of humility you can quickly find out where you're assumptions aren't true, adapt, and get ever close to the 'truth'.

Ok-Replacement-2738

the 1,200 people who were killed in the hamas attack at a music concert were virtually ALL CIVILIANS.

Some_Information6273

The problem with Israel-Palestine is the world approaches it with a western point of view and solutions. It’s a different mind set from the Middle East which will never play out to a lasting solution.

Sadly, my father, an Egyptian Jew (born in Cairo before Israeli statehood , just like Mr Palestine himself, Yasser Arafat) had a very poignant statement decades ago having grown up in the culture.

It’s not exclusive to dealing with Israel and time seems to have provided a mountain of evidence to my generation. And the line was…..”Arabs only understand the sword.”

EagleDre

It’s quite simple. The protests are organized. They aren’t organic by any means. By Oct 8, 2023, the anti-Israel propaganda was already in full swing, globally. It also coincides with the general anti-Western trend infesting our culture. Israel happens to have values that are far more Western than the general Middle East and that narrative doesn’t play well in the Middle East nor the crisis of anti-Western liberalism across Europe and North America. “Palestinians” receive BILLIONS in international aid and aren’t motivated or driven to succeed in the same way that Israel has. Hate on this all you want, but it’s true. Jews were willing to accept FAR LESS for a Jewish homeland prior to UN Resolution 181 in 1947. The deals never mattered, they simply wanted to start building. If the “Palestinians” are to have any success, they need a state and that means striking a deal. Forever kicking the proverbial state can down the road does nothing for their people or future, except more of the same. Which is corruption and funneling of aid into the hands of the few to benefit while the rest of the population suffers and is brought up to believe Israel does not have the right to exist. Deals don’t last forever and the longer the “Palestinians” delay, the worse it will become for them.

z3no123

The UN has been repeating Hamas talking points as if they are truth.

The UN denounced Israel hundreds of times, but never denounced Hamas or the acts of Oct 7th even once.  They also never denounced Iran, and had a big moment of silence and flew their flags half-mast for the "Butcher of Tehran."  There's much ACTUAL genocide in the world that the UN loudly does NOT denounce.  It's strange.

The media takes whatever "the Gazan Health Ministry" (Hamas) and the UN say as fact.

They pretend not to know that there is no Freedom of Speech in Gaza, and the Gazan Health Ministry answers to Hamas.  Everyone in Gaza answers to Hamas.  If you say something they don't like, you are dead.

Iran, Qatar, and others have donated trillions into US colleges, sponsoring professorships and new majors about how Islam is so awesome, and Israel is intrinsically SO EVIL and must be destroyed no matter what, and also how the West is also SO EVIL and ultimately needs to be colonized by Islam.   They say that last part a little more quietly.

They have the exact same war against Hindus / India.  They have academics at NYU teaching that India is a Muslim country, always WAS a Muslim country, and Hinduism literally doesn't even exist.   They taught us that people who call themselves Hindus are "racist Nazi genocidal colonizers" blah blah blah, that they made up their identity recent to erase the Muslim history of India, etc. They said even if you use the WORD "Hindu" or acknowledge that HIndus exist and have for thousands of years--- you're a terrible person, basically a Nazi.  It's so insane.   To me its clear that they want to rewrite the history of India and erase Hindus from it.

Just as they plopped Al Aqsa Mosque ON TOP of the ancient Jewish Temple Mount and yet claim that the Jews are the colonizers.     Just as the Kaabaa of Mecca was actually a very important Polytheist religious site for ALL pagans.  They feel a need to take everyone's culture and history away from them, apparently.

It's so weird.

the-endless-nameless

My post got downvoted, but everyone needs to learn about the ACTUAL teachings of Islam and the life of their prophet.  It explains everything about Israel-Palestine.  It's a continuation of the work of the prophet Mohammad himself.

In the early years (the Mecca period), Mohammad said some nice things about people living in peace together (granted, he meant everyone living under Sharia where non-Muslims are second class citizens and have to pay the Jizzyah to not be killed or enslaved, but whatever).

Later, when he went to Medina, things got much darker, and his words were much more violent.

He went to the Jews of Medina presenting himself as their new prophet.  They asked him 3 Torah questions, he did not answer to their liking, and they rejected him.   He passionately hated them after that, and killed all 700\~ of them in the village leaving some women they kept as captive wives and sex slaves.

He also commanded believers to hunt down and kill every last Jew before Judgement Day.

It says "The Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, which will speak to reveal their hiding places.  They will say "Oh slave of Allah, there's a Jew behind me, come kill him."

It says that Judgement Day and heaven will not come until the believers accomplish this commandment.

You can look that up.

Mohammad was also killed by a Jewish woman.  He had conquered her people, killed her family, etc, and she was a slave.  She served him poisoned meat.   Some hold this against the Jews to this day.

Mohammad and his followers used to go around attacking non-Muslim villages, robbing them, dividing the booty between the Muslims, and giving the conquered peoples a choice between conversion to Islam, slavery, or death.   Mohammad had many slaves and sex slaves, as well as 11 wives.  His favorite wife, Aisha, was 9 years old when he started having sex with her, and he was in his 50s.    Mohammad is considered the perfect Muslim, and Sharia is based on the way he lived. 

Islam is a universalist religion, like Christianity, but they aim to convert the world "by the sword" (warfare), and install Sharia, whereas Christians want to convert the world "by the word" (preaching).

Islamists are obsessed with conquering the West.   It's not a secret.

There are literally protests this week in England, Germany, and Denmark where thousands of Muslims in Europe are DEMANDING Sharia law be instated where they are.

Listen to Ex-Muslims and actual Islamic sources on this topic, not Western academics, not Al Jazeera, the BBC or the Guardian.   Not UNWRA or the UN.   They're all very much in bed with the Islamists.

One Ex-Muslim YouTube Channel that is very educational is called Nabi Asli.   She's an Ex-Muslim in India who knows all the scripture inside and out.   She makes animations that directly depict the stories from the life of Mohammad.   It's wild.

Other Ex-Muslim Youtube channels:  Apostate Prophet, Friendly Ex-Muslim, Infidel Noodle, Tousi TV.

These Ex-Muslims are Turkish, Arab, Pakistani, Iranian.  Clearly they're not motivated by "racism."   They broke free of the religion and they are speaking the truth, risking their lives to do so.

Obviously one must separate the ideology from the people.   Ideology can be condemned, but we still respect the humanity and basic rights of the people themselves.   We can love them and hate the ideology.

(Reminder, Ideology is NOT a ethnic group.  Criticism of Islam is not 'racism' any more than criticism of Capitalism or Christianity.   It's very much a strategy to enforce Sharia blasphemy laws by convincing us that its a crime to criticize Islam)

Most Muslims are not to blame in any way for any of this.  Most Muslims did not even ever choose to be Muslims.  The vast majority were born into it or forcibly converted.  Many of them do not know the horrible things Mohammad said and did.  Many have been manipulated and lied to.   If they leave Islam, its punishable by death under Islamic law.   Their own families may kill them (honor killings).

Many consider submission to Islamic law more important than anything else on Earth.

I don't blame Muslims themselves, but the ideology is VERY problematic.

Bless you for being honest and being able to see through the Islamist propaganda.

This is a bad faith, fake post IMO.  But if you're real:

You're learning that there is nuance here.  Are Hamas terrorists, or are they legitimate resistance against an occupying invader?

George Washington was a treasonous Englishman.  A traitor who should have been executed.  But for Americans, the national Patriarch

leather-and-boobs

Hi OP, I’d recommend this article. https://www.972mag.com/israel-gaza-total-urban-destruction/

If you choose to read it would be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

Most content is biased, so best to read both biases, and consider that Jews are 500:1 demographically so expect usually more antizionist content on social media and left-leaning media.

I also got good recommendation on this one (requires a sign up)
https://www.joinwithprageru.com/israel-and-the-middle-east-101/

Emergency_Career9965

You won’t fine a single un-biased person here. Try and drill chatgbt for both sides

Hazey_Dreams4658

Puzzled-Painter3301

I also want to add that Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un, and Xi Jinping don't consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization, but America, Canada, Australia, and the European Union (27 out of 44 countries in Europe) and a few more countries do consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization.

Economy-Grape-3467

You should check out the Vice-hosted documentary, Israelism.

[link here](https://youtu.be/qQHUro6u6Kc?si=FLpMiWv0L7uuGJAo)

farcemyarse

I ❤️ it when someone asks questions such as these.  The answer is…… there is none.  In the past 77 years states have been offered and refused.  Gaza was left to see if it could stand and walk and it fell down on its butt and started having a 2 year old temper tantrum.  The kind of fits where parent want to scream “stop screaming or I will give you something to scream about”.  

And the sad thing is it’s been this endless cycle of attack and retaliate.  I’m pretty sure no one knows when exactly this really started as there is lots of evidence for ‘47 or the 1930’s or 1890’s or even 700 AD.  

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if it all started with one person who farted such a raunchy smelling disgusting entity that chased people out of businesses.  People got “wind” of that event and thinking he purposely chased them out of places they picked up pitchforks intent on lynching the “racist” imbecile who decided to drink milk that morning as he was lactose intolerant.  Thus he was promptly executed by the towns elders.   The imbeciles family gets upset and decides to get revenge And it goes on and on and on………  over a fart.

Lexiesmom0824

While Judaism is both an ethnic and a religious identity, the same cannot be said for Christianity and Islam. If the suggestion is that Palestinians, a people with a history and culture tied to the land they’ve lived for over a thousand years, are “interchangeable” with any other Islamic group of people, that’s not correct. There is diversity of traditions and beliefs throughout the Islamic world. Palestinians (who are not only Muslim) see themselves as people whose existence and history is tied to Palestine. 

Israel has the right to sovereignty but that does not give it the right to violate the human rights of other indigenous inhabitants on the land which the nation state of Israel was created not even a hundred years ago. 

Frankly, my opinion of the legitimacy of Israel defining itself entirely as a Jewish state as opposed to a more inclusive perspective of who has an equal claim to live in their homeland, is getting increasingly sour. I guess my bias as an American (a racial minority but not a religious minority) is that it’s imperative of nations that have a history of modern state creation, religious, ethnic and cultural diversity, to define their nationhood in the most inclusive framework possible. That’s the goal. Clearly this is a big struggle in the USA but due to my experiences and those of generations of my family, that’s my bias. 

Religious wars don’t end until you get to the point where nobody thinks martyrdom is worth it. Framing the violence between Palestinians and Jews and Israelis as being about religious identities, and given the sacred religious place Jerusalem holds in the three Abrahamic faiths, this thing is never going to end. 

In the long run the only resolutions I see is Israel ridding of all the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza (expelling, genocide etc.) or working (with equally invested Palestinians) to create a more inclusive and nuanced history  and national identity that protects Jews and Jewish indigenousness to Palestine/Israel but equally validates the identity, rights of Palestinians to be equally included in the political community/nation of Israel. I can’t see a two state solution ever being a stable framework of peace.

mBegudotto

Respectfully, and I mean this because you clearly put a lot of effort in here, I think part of the problem here is the way you’ve set up the questions. They start from a premise that October 7 happened in a vacuum after Israel patiently absorbed decades of unprovoked rocket fire, when in reality it came after decades of blockade, military occupation, mass displacement, settlement expansion, and repeated large-scale bombardments. You can choose to see Hamas’ actions as the start of the clock, but you could just as easily start it at 1967, or 1948, or the Balfour Declaration, or 3000 years ago, etc... and the moral arithmetic would look very different.

I don't say this to excuse Hamas’ atrocities, they remain indefensible, and they’ve made the situation worse for civilians in Gaza as well as Israel, but "defensive strategy" doesn’t mean anything in a vacuum either. A siege that’s starved children, bombed refugee camps, flattened neighborhoods, and killed tens of thousands of civilians is not self-defense in any meaningful moral or legal sense, especially when it’s paired with statements from senior Israeli officials making clear they see Gaza’s population itself as a target.

As for the most Gazans support Hamas claim, polling under siege and occupation is inherently unreliable, but even in better times, support has been fluid and more often tied to lack of alternatives than to deep ideological alignment. Right now I can tell you, most I've spoken to hate them now, for good reason - but that also I couldn't claim is a scientific sample. Regardless conflating a civilian population with an armed group is exactly how collective punishment gets rationalized.

On your points about religion, I’ve worked in enough conflict zones to know you can find extremists in any faith. I've seen Buddhist monks calling for the extermination of Muslims in Myanmar, and Catholic gangs in Colombia threatening to cut up old ladies for not paying protection money in the name of God. The difference is whether governments and armed groups act on those extremes. Plenty of Israelis and plenty of Palestinians want a future that doesn’t involve annihilating the other, but the current political and military leadership on both sides are locked into cycles that make that future impossible.

So in sum, I do understand your perspective, I just think it leaves out too much history and too much of the present reality for Palestinians, and when you put all of it on the table the idea that what’s happening now is defense becomes much harder to sustain.

No-Baker-2864

Deliberately starving children is not national security. 

Flooding Gaza with food will not destroy Israel.

gamys77

&gt;There is so much blame put towards Israel for its part in the war, but the actions of Hamas are accepted without the same pushback.

Sure, no country condemned Hamas at all. In fact, a lot of countries still support Hamas with weapons and diplomatic support. Or is it Israel?

Ok_Row_6627

*"There is so much blame put towards Israel for its part in the war, but the actions of Hamas are accepted without the same pushback."*

This is because of antisemitism. Ideally, both sides should be treated equally and condemned equally for their respective war crimes.

*"I understand many take the moral high ground and call it a genocide but that seems to be regurgitated rhetoric to me."*

And here in lies the rub. Believing Israel is a genocide because 'everyone says so' is foolish. And on the flip side, dismissing what 'everyone' says just because 'everyone is saying it' is also foolish. Personally I am past debating if it's genocide or not: there's good evidence for it, good evidence against it, and it'll all come out in court. What I care about is if people have good, solid reasons for believing it is or isn't genocide, and can back those reasons up.

*"What I ask is why would Israel just lay down and accept the terms of terrorist?"*

Simple answer is, they won't. At this point, it's not even about Israel fighting terrorism. It's also about wanting to prove the rest of the world wrong.

*Isreal has caused devastation across Gaza there is no doubt but it isn’t like it was an out of the blue attack on the people of the strip.*

Pro-Palestine people would argue Israel also caused an out-of-the-blue occupation on the people of the strip in the 1940s.

*Oct 7 was the last straw but Israel doesn’t want the death of all in Gaza.(Before this statement causes arguments they want them out of Gaza not dead if they truly wanted them dead they would be simple as that.)* 

 I'd caution you that there are some Israelis who seem to want everyone in Gaza dead. I'd also point out that if they *were* planning to kill everyone, they aren't going to announce it on national television. They'd do it slowly and carefully to avoid detection. This is one reason some people believe that Israel is committing genocide, and is just stringing it out over years.

*Hamas is the main perpetrator of this but the citizens on mass support the actions and more worryingly the message of Hamas. Remember they have voted for Hamas to get and keep power.*

Hamas kills anyone who opposes them. If you were a Gazan with a family and children to look after, would you risk your family's safety by speaking out? Or would you just quietly vote for Hamas and hope they leave you alone?

*the entire Muslim world hates the jews and all the radicals(mind you the majority not minority) wish death to those outside of their world view especially the jewish people.* 

This is Islamophobia. There are many Muslims who don't hate Jews, and are in fact friends with, or even spouses with, Jews. There are Muslims who have been raised to hate Jews but who are trying to rid themselves of these feelings. And, frankly, there are Muslims who don't think about Jews at all.

You have a good understanding of the Israeli side of things, and a good understanding of Hamas's tactics and rhetoric. However, you're choosing to tar all Muslims with the same brush, instead of seeing them as individuals. If you want them to fight back against Hamas, why on earth should a Muslim listen to you if you seem to have already decided you dislike them?

Prudent-Matter317

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